Are you asking about relationships between men and women working within the church or fellowship settings? 

Or are you referring to keeping 'right' relationships...to prevent hanky panky among people that are not married?

I'm asking about the ministry roles of men and women in the church.

i'll tackle this when i get home ;)

lj.

That's a nice sized can you're opening...but it's alright.  Open forums should address issues like this for the edification of the saints.  (Somebody's got to talk about it.) On another site I support, I recently encountered a forum post about 'women preachers are anointed by God' and it wasn't pretty...it was getting out of hand.

...in the name of Jesus that will not happen here...

I don't believe that women are supposed to be in the pastorate position either (this including the roles of bishop, elder, and deacon).  I think the Word is extremely clear about that in...

I Timothy 3. 

1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre 9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

That is a very nice size can. ;D

As we prepare to dig in the Word and seek the Lord's guidance, may I ask why this question has come up?

I believe wrong, hyper/under exaggerated gender perceptions and taking the scriptures out of context of the whole Word (OT & NT) have wounded the body.  It has left men and women wondering what role they really play in the body and kingdom.  And in order, for the full harvest to come in as well as for the body to be healed, we need to better understand those roles fully through the Scripts.  Elbows can't continue trying to act as fingers if you get my drift.  It causes everything to be out of balance and hinders His work.

Seeking to live under the tree of life and not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...
Kyera

I will preface this by saying that I'm a cessationist and I firmly believe that the sign gifts ceased during the era of the apostles. I say that because it is clear that women were allowed to pray and prophesy in the apostolic age, but that era has since ceased and doesn't make itself relevant to this discussion or what I plan on saying (so I won't even make mention of it).

I recently did quite a bit of research on this topic, as it was one that I had questions about and later became a point of contention in me deciding to break fellowship with both my church and the denomination I formerly belonged to. I currently to the stance that women are not to be pastors/preachers and to be put in a position over men where they are teaching scripture/doctrine. This is not to say that women cannot serve in the church, which I will address later. I will begin by sharing a portion of the letter that I wrote to my pastor when I was stepping down as a member of that church.

Women preachers is another thing I see going on in the church that I cannot necessarily reconcile with Scriptures. When I study passages like the latter portion of 1 Corinthians 14 (verses 33-35) and 1 Timothy 2:11-15, I can’t see how there can be women pastors and preachers. From my study of the passages and reading numerous commentary and digging into the original Greek language as best as I can without knowing Greek, it appears as if Paul’s statement is one that transcends time and social issue, but speaks more to the heart of God’s original order for man and woman. Now, I understand that the Spirit gives gifts as He wills, even to women, but even then it appears that the passage in 1 Timothy states that there is a time & place for women to teach the Word, such as to a group of women or children.

In regards to passages found in Ephesians that talk about there not being male nor female, Greek or Jew, free or slave and all that, I took them into consideration; I ended up throwing them out of the argument because when looked at in context they speak of our salvation and has nothing to do with the gift of teaching or shepherding a flock of believers. I also find it interesting that when speaking about the offices in the church, the only one filled by women was that of deaconess (1 Timothy 3:11 and Romans 16:1). I see that there is a role for women in the ministry, but if we are to take the words of Paul literally, pastoring/preaching is not one of them, since that is a position of authority, and women are charged to not have authority over a man.

Nevertheless, I just cannot find Scripture that supports this stance. But this is not to say that I have not been taught the Word of God from women, as I have learned a great deal from co-pastor, as well as women friends who are well versed in the Word. Despite what I have learned from them, I do realize that just because God allows it does not make it right; this is one area in which I would like to be obedient, not just covered under grace because of ignorance.

With that being said, let me dig into the Word a little bit. Let us start with the passage that GentileBeauty posted in 1 Timothy 3. One of the things that I love about the Greek language and its use of gender, which really helps in understanding the passage and the intent of the author.

If we look at the Greek (thank God for Strong's, Vine's and an Interlinear Bible) we will quickly see that the gender spoken of here is masculine and addresses both men and women separately. Men are addressed exclusively in the overseer/bishop and deacon offices, especially when it speaks of them having one wife (wouldn't even want to go there with a woman trying to have a wife...); we also then see that women are addressed in the middle of this passage, showing their role as either a deaconness or wife of a deacon (either definition can be used). But without being long and drawn out, it's pretty clear that women have traits they need for ministry and the office that they are to hold. And it is worth noting that a deacon is simply a servant (as it is one of the translations of diakonos).

Jumping back a chapter to 1 Timothy 2, we see the instructions for women. The whole women teaching men goes back to the created order and God placing man as head of the household and the family covering, which directly correlates to the church. Again, many women are gifted with the gift of teaching, so how are they to use it? They are able to teach other women, as well as children, since that does not put them in a position of usurping the authority from men. But this is just one gift, which means that there are many other areas where women are able to effectively serve in the ministry; this is seen often in Scripture with women like Phoebe and Priscilla.

Well, that should be enough to get the ball rolling :) plus would like to see what everyone else has to say.

lj.

(I know this is a little long, but I am going somewhere with this...please bear with me)

Though this is probably an issue that has gone on for a good while in the church, I'm fairly new to it. Even though I've been a disciple of Jesus for 10 years and a preacher of the Gospel for 9, this is one of those issues that have 'officially' eluded me for some time.  Though I sat under, worked with, and fellowshipped with women pastors and preachers as a believer, no one ever addressed what the scriptures stated about their position of office in that time.  Considering this, to my error, I never considered the full meaning behind the text...or at least acted upon it.

What I'm finding is that it is one of those 'taboo' subjects in the church that people don’t like to talk about like 'once saved, always saved.'  Many people just leave it alone.  With that, I’ll touch on my life and go through my years in the faith...

(1998)

This is the first time I encountered a church led by a woman pastor.  As I became a Christian in Japan (1997), no one ever spoke about women in ministry, I was just trying to learn, live, and grow as a disciple.  (The ministries in Japan are more close knit and often silent on controversial issues within the church - at least the Americans in my company.)

The denomination was new to the installation and was trying to establish a presence among the military.  The military 'arm' of the church was headed by a female Bishop who came to preach revival-type messages to draw interest in their denomination.  No one said it was wrong.  I didn’t hear anyone speak against it.

The husband was only a minister in the church and was not placed in the position of an elder.  I thought this was strange and it seemed out of place.  They wanted me to commit to their fellowship and offered a good fellowship, training, ministry license/ordination, etc., but within a few months, I departed the church and moved to my second encounter with a woman pastor.

(1999)

My second encounter was with a church pastor and co-pastor (husband and wife).  No one said anything about a woman co-pastor, but I also didn't address it.  There were other things filling up my time (I wrote a book on those things - literally). 

Now, between the pastor and co-pastor they each had their own style of ministry.  The husband was a teacher and the wife was the preacher.  As time went on, she began exercising more control over the church - to the point where it conflicted with the pastor (noticeably).  It got to the point that if the pastor said 'no' to something, you can go to the co-pastor and have her 'coax' her husband into changing his mind. 

Nonetheless, the co-pastor and I ran into a situation of he-said/she-said (you'll have to read the book for the details - I can't write all that) and I ended up leaving the church in 2001.

(2000)

My third encounter was a couple in the COGIC denomination.  This was the first time I ever heard that a woman could not hold a position of ministry in the church (i.e. minister, elder, pastor, etc.).  Though I was intrigued, I did not ask any questions.  Because there were no COGIC churches in the area (in Japan), so they served at our non-denominational church.  She held the position of an evangelist in COGIC and was much more 'polished' in the Word than her husband...a lot more.  He had a license of ministry through COGIC and I was moved by her support of her husband's growth.  With my understanding of women preachers (at the time), I thought she should be preaching.  Even though they served under a woman co-pastor, they too never addressed their concerns.

(2001-2003)

In my 'wilderness' period, I listened to a woman preacher.  I thought she related to many of my situations, but after about two years, the Lord told me to stop watching her...I started understanding why after a while.

(2004-2005)

While stationed in South Korea, I supported a non-denomination church and a COGIC congregation.  Though I never saw a woman preach at the COGIC church, the non-denominational church had three women ministers that they licensed toward the end of their military tour.

(2006)

This was the first head-on discussed I heard about women preachers and pastors.  One of the forums I support has had a few discussions about this issue, but I normally stay out of them.  It was like a long tennis match where each side went tit-for-tat without the display of Christian love.  Because of the nature of their conversation, I decided not to even read their posts, but I did read up on the subject.

(2007)

This same forum started another discussion when someone started a wrote on 'women preachers are anointed by God.'  Again, I didn’t want to get involved because the discussion was getting ugly, but I felt led to post to end the mess.  The conversation ended after a few more 'slings,' but I had more interest in this issue.

After the post here, I knew I had to address this issue a little more.  To be honest, up to this point I didn't take a solid position about this issue, I just sat on the fence looking at the issues on both sides.  I knew that I would now have to take up a position and better understand God’s Word in light of the countless women preaching, teaching, and leading congregations.  As a preacher of the Gospel that is my responsibility to teach and lead others in truth.

(thanks gentilebeauty for opening this up) :)

These are questions I've had over the years…and meditated on a little…

• Who's right, who's wrong?!  [/*:m]
• Is this for God’s church today?  Is God not in this?!  (women pastors)[/*:m]
• How can women be before God’s people and this be against scripture?!  [/*:m]
• How can people be against these women for doing what they felt called to do?! [/*:m]

I didn't want to be lead by what I saw in society, I wanted to truly be led by God's Word.  After reading the scriptures, I knew that the scriptures do not share the same position for women leading men, teaching men, and pasturing congregations...but I didn’t take that final position...

Right after I read the scripture above in the post, the Lord said (paraphrase) that even though this is not seen in society (and goes against society), what is written in the Bible is my will...accept it.   Amen...that's it for me!  My position is official taken on that (sorry about taking you the long way, but I’m sure someone felt as I did).

What I've come to understand within this short period is that if we begin to make concessions and 'excuses' to go against what is plainly written in scripture, that will only lead to more excuses.  If you don't follow one part, what would keep you from following another?  You run the risk of only applying scriptures you 'feel' that pertain to you...and that will eventually lead to heresy and apostasy. 

Saints, keep the Word before you and hold its messages in high esteem in your heart.  There are many other issues I have not 'officially' taken a stand on that I must consider as well.  Pray for me as I am continually sharpened and taught by our Father.

God bless...

I'm thankful for this forum as it sets itself as a breeding ground for learning and truth...

[/]

amen bro :) kinda the same boat i was in and how i came to the conclusion i did... i never paid it much mind growing up in church, but recently saw a forum discussing it and decided to do my OWN studying (reading their forum convo sparingly, as it was a lot of back & forth)... and ended up with the same conclusion that you did... and finding more and more that i have to stand on the Word, no matter what society (or even the church) may say... and i gotta do the same with everything else in Scripture

lj.

Hey :)  I've spent the past two days praying over this discussion and how to respond with what is on my heart.  But due to some of the things posted, I feel as though anything I would have to say in respect to the scriptures on this issues would not be heard. You're my brothers and I love you both as brothers in Christ and don't want any arguments, disunity, or division to arise out of this discussion (Philippians 1:9-10;27, Ephesians 4:3).

Those of us involved in this discussion thus far have been saved for about the same amount of time. I've been walking with Him for a little over 10 years and have been involved in ministry (missions, youth ministry, worship, teaching in schools, etc.)for the past 7. And though we agree on some points we do not agree on others and I am okay with that. On the points where we do not agree on, I trust and believe God will perfect all of our understanding within His time. Above all else, may we agree on Christ and leave the rest to His timing and perfection.

Love your sis in Christ,
Kyera   

(PLEASE READ AND TAKE HEED)

After Kyera posting the message above, I sent her a PM basically asking for her views on the topic.  Now, in light of this, the Lord told me not to question what He said (in regards to women in ministry - above), but I wanted to understand why - especially with the number of women that are currently holding positions of authority over men...I just want to understand other view points...

I know another woman in ministry that I've talked to and I recently learned about her position within their church.  I had considered speaking with her on her views about this subject when the Lord quickened me again. 

Even though I (we) may not understand (the whys and hows) of something God says, it is not for me (us) to investigate it...only obey it.  Though I may never know or understand why (at least while on this earth), I must take greater heed to what the Lord has spoken - and leave the issue alone entirely.

Now, if someone asks me about this issue in the future, I can refer them to the scriptures and share what God has spoken to me.  It is important for me to understand God's will and not other points of view.  Though this may seem harsh, but there are a lot of issues out there that can become stumbling blocks instead of stepping stones to His will - if we continue to investigate the whys and hows...

My point in this: Be obedient to what the Lord tells you - even if you don't understand every point-of-view.  Sometimes we can get so caught up in wanting to understand everything that we fall out of His will.

Community forums are beautiful places to dialogue; share; and grow in the Lord, but you must take heed when the Lord speaks to you.

Let my life serve as an example for yours...

Part of the learning process and perfecting of faith is asking questions.  Yes be completely obedient, but don't be afraid to ask questions in order to better take ownership, hone, or correct your convictions/beliefs.  God never asked us to be ignorant (lacking knowledge) robots.  If we question because we doubt Him, then that's an issue.  But if we question to better understand, I don't see anything wrong with this. 

As for my stance on women in ministry it is something that needs to be discussed more in depth.  But as for now, there are more pressing personal matters that need my prayer and attention. 

I Timothy 3. 

1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre 9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

True
but remember when the bible is referring to the word man it dosent talk about it being linked with gender. In most cases man signifies all of us (Including women)
What do u guys think?

well, the Greek language is very particular with its gender specifications and we have to keep that in mind when reading Scripture. there are masculine, feminine, and neuter genders that are used in the Greek text.

in this particular passage, these words are very gender specific, especially when read within context and you take into account the fact that women are specifically mentioned here, which means that the roles of men are for men, and women for women

in all things, we must remember context... and when gender is specific, we should make sure we read it as such.

and just as a side note, passages like this by no means lower the status of women in society or the church, as women play a very significant part in the church; it is simply the fact that God has given us ALL a role to play, and some are gender specific

lj.

It's good that you bring up context. Yes, Greek is a very specific and gendered language (as are most excluding the Germanic languages), but we also must take into consideration the historical context in which this text was written. Btw, does anyone happen to know the historical context behind these scriptures?  What was going on in the body then?  I think knowing the historical context, especially in this instance, will shed soooo much light.

Ahhh...I'm sure you're referring to Diana (Artemis) and the influence 'she' had on the women and men in the city...

Here are some additional references:

• Diana (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia) - http://cf.blueletterbible.org/isbe/isbe.cfm?id=2680[/*:m]
• Ephesus (International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia) - http://cf.blueletterbible.org/isbe/isbe.cfm?id=3137[/*:m]
• Women pastors / preachers? What does the Bible say about women in ministry? - http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html[/*:m]

[/]

The whole Diana piece is completely new to me, when I get a min. I'll have to look more [=green]into that.  I was thinking more a long the lines of what was happening during the services that Paul was referencing.  The following text is from an online commentary/study guide that I think will illuminate much of what the Word has to say. On many levels, it highlights what I've come to understand these texts to mean over the years. Here's the link to the whole commentary on I Tim. 2 [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=2&verse=11&Comm=Comm%2Fdavid_guzik%2Fsg%2F1Ti_2.html%230%26*David+Guzik%26&Select.x=31&Select.y=17]Blue Letter Bible[/url]

3. (11-12) Women are to show submission, and yield to the authority of the men God has appointed to lead in the church.

Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

a. Let a woman learn in silence: This unfortunate translation has led some to believe that it is forbidden for women to even speak in church meetings. Paul uses the same word translated silence in 1 Timothy 2:2, and it is translated peaceable there. The idea is without contention instead of total silence.

i. In other places in the New Testament, even in the writings of Paul, women are specifically mentioned as praying and speaking in the church (1 Corinthians 11:5). To learn in silence has the idea of women receiving the teaching of the men God has chosen to lead in the church, with submission instead of contention.

ii. Submission is the principle; to learn in silence describes the application of the principle.

iii. Some have said the reason for this is because in these ancient cultures (as well as some present-day cultures), men and women sat in separate sections. The thought is that women interrupted the church service by shouting questions and comments to their husbands during the service. Clarke expresses this idea: “It was lawful for men in public assemblies to ask questions, or even interrupt the speaker when there was any matter in his speech which they did not understand; but this liberty was not granted to women.â€

...soooo are you saying that women should be allowed to teach/minister as long as they are not in authority and are in submission to male leadership?

Yes :)

Can we take a look at the Greek (through Strong's) for 1 Timothy 2:11-12:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=2&verse=12&version=KJV#12

Contrary to my position years ago, the word the Lord was referring to can be found in Luke 9 (specifically Luke 9:49-50) - read entire chapter for context. As Jesus says in Luke 9:49-50, John answered, "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." (NIV) He said WHOEVER...and whoever refers to men, women, and children.

(After reading the entire chapter) From the John’s standpoint, only the disciples were been given authority by Jesus to cast out demons. John may have believed this other person had no ‘right’ to cast out demons because Jesus did not specifically approve this person to carry out this ‘function.’ So how did Jesus respond:

Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you.

Jesus wanted John to understand that even though this person had not been specifically ‘called’ or given authority to cast out demons (at least in the disciples’ presence), their work should not be considered invalid, wrong, unapproved, or false. WHY?! Because Jesus said whoever is not against you is for you.

Jesus said WHOEVER. Whoever means man, woman, or child…that’s whoever. Better yet, let’s look it up. According to Dictionary.com, the word whoever is defined as:

whatever person; anyone that
no matter who

WHOEVER!

Now, this may be contrary to what you have been taught growing up in various traditional churches or denominations. But Jesus said whoever. Sadly, though this is plainly written, there will be some that will try to refute this using other scriptures. Remind them that it is Jesus that one must be committed to as it was a commission to His disciples to teach disciples to obey everything HE commanded (Matthew 28:18-20). People will refute Jesus’ very words because they are not rightly dividing the word of truth AND to suit their own purposes and desires. The people in positions of leadership will refute Jesus’ teachings and because they are in ‘authority,’ they make the rules and demand you to follow them. They are dividing the body of Christ and hindering the Lord's work from going forward. Follow Christ above all!

Getting back to Luke 9…this person’s work (or ministry) is approved because he’s on the same side as John and the disciples. Is this person doing something illegal in Jesus’ name? Are they stealing or defrauding the people? NO! They were casting out demons – removing evil spirits out of people in Jesus’ name so they may be healed (and bringing glory to God as Jesus’ name is proclaimed). They were serving the same purpose and should not be stopped or silenced because they are not specifically sanctioned by the apostles.

Please forgive me for any disruption I may have caused for Kyera or the assembly of believers here.